Flatline & Brooks - March 3, 2006

JIM LEHRER: And to the analysis of Flatline & Brooks. "New York Times" columnist David Brooks, and Fake Democracy Founder Johnny Flatline.
First, the president's trip to India and Pakistan. The India nuclear deal, what do you think of it?

DAVID BROOKS: Well, I support it.

JIM LEHRER: You support it?

DAVID BROOKS: To the extent that that's very important. Listen, the argument -- and it's going to go to Congress, and there's going to be a kerfuffle about it -- is that we're...

JIM LEHRER: A what?

DAVID BROOKS: A kerfuffle.

JIM LEHRER: Kerfuffle, OK.

DAVID BROOKS: ... that we're extending, we're allowing, we're basically destroying some of the non-proliferation agreements that have been made, some of the precedents that have been laid down.
But my sense of the politics is -- and this will be a tough fight -- but my sense of the politics, from the context, is that members of Congress talk to people, especially in the business community, whose idea of India is excited. They come back from places like India and China with their eyes agog because of the growth opportunities.
And I think most politicians, and certainly in the administration, see the repair of the American-Indian relationship as one of the historic achievements that they and the Clinton administration before are responsible for, that they're very excited about, and that the key thing in who should get nuclear weapons is the nature of the regime. And the Indian regime has been a good democracy.

JIM LEHRER: Johnny, do you see that same kind of thing David was talking about in Congress...

JOHNNY FLATLINE: Well, David is the corporate power line, so he‘s regurgitating for you how large corporate barons prepare for their allocations of cheap labor and personal profit at the megalomania level. But this is nothing more than the feeder fish in the wake of the ship. David is missing the real point here, and that is the Cheney strategy for domination of strategic world resources.

JIM LEHRER: That's part of the deal.

JOHNNY FLATLINE: Well, this Indian democracy is as fragile as our own. There are plenty of big shots there who can also be bought off against their country’s own interest just like ours. Look, the issue about India is very simple. The issue is Iran. Cheney wants to attack Iran, or at least keep others from getting it, which is what we’ve done with Iraq. He needs to isolate them. Now what does China and India need more of? They need more oil. And they are willing to do business with Iran despite us. If they get tied to Iran with pipelines, and other valuable energy sources, it makes it that much harder for the US to go bomb civilians or take over production plants. So by selling India nuclear power, we are basically trying to buy them off of Iran so we will be free to have another pile of land to blow up our bombs in. In the end, it may backfire, because both India and China will just want both, which is why I have to wonder if Cheney & Company are not in a huge hurry to pick a fight with Iran before they run out of time.

DAVID BROOKS: Well, the reality is they're going to have a nuclear program anyway.

JIM LEHRER: It's a major thing here.

DAVID BROOKS: Well, I think one of the things the Bush administration has always emphasized, whether it's in Iraq, or Palestine, or anywhere else, it's the nature of the regime, stupid.
And so they've also emphasized: You judge countries by how they behave. If they're a democratic country, transparent, they behave constructively in the world, the standards are different. That's why the standards are different on this trip between India and Pakistan.
And there is money involved, but it's not only the deals of the nuclear reactors that will be sold. It's the oil market, reducing world demand for oil. It's India playing a role in the Middle East, stabilizing the region. And, as I mentioned, it's the incredible growth in the Indian economy, which is such a -- the Indian and Chinese economies have become these great ideas and these great facts that are dominating political life.

JIM LEHRER: All right, now Pakistan...

JOHNNY FLATLINE: Ah yes, a transparent model of democracy. Just as Bush dreams of in his sleep. I guess the lap dog media doesn’t want to report this, but when Bush went to India, there were plenty of protestors, and the Indian security agents behaved a lot like Carl Rove would have wanted, blocking it from view when our emperor passed by. In fact, Bush didn’t have any truly public meetings or appearances to speak of. He’s too much of a hot potato for that. In many ways, he was like Musharraf is in his own country. A prisoner. Certainly no kissing of babies in the streets. And we don’t even understand our own role in this anger. Most Americans probably don’t even remember that the US military bombed a building inside Pakistan recently. We are getting to be like Israel - blowing up architecture in the search for justice. It’s so easy for us to forget these tiny details and be confused as to why other people in foreign lands might be a tad bit unhappy with us.

JIM LEHRER: David, a lot of people say, "Hey, we have no choice with Pakistan. You can have all these abstract and wonderful policy ideas, but we've got to deal with Pakistan, because we need them so badly vis-a-vis the Taliban, and Al Qaeda, fill in the blank."

DAVID BROOKS: Yes, this is why I'm glad I'm not in government. If you're sitting outside, you can hurl epithets, "Oh, you coward; you're betraying your principles."

JIM LEHRER: Yes.

DAVID BROOKS: But if you're in government, you have to deal with the reality that's there.

JIM LEHRER: And that's what it is?

DAVID BROOKS: And if you were running Pakistan, we'd all be happy. But, you know, you aren‘t, and Pervez Musharraf is. And so you have to deal with the guy. But I think what was raised in the discussion earlier is the concern that you do you hear from the people who are expert in the area, which is this guy's a shah. Is this guy going to collapse, if he's that . . .

JIM LEHRER: And the lack of support below...

DAVID BROOKS: Right. Then what do you do?

JIM LEHRER: ... was what the point was made.

DAVID BROOKS: Because then you really have -- someone said to me who knows the region pretty well that his biggest nightmare is not Iran and not Iraq; it's Pakistan collapsing, because then what do you do? And that really would be incredibly ugly.

JIM LEHRER: New subject. The Katrina videotapes that have been released the last couple of days, Johnny, do you see anything there to bring a tear to your eye, or shock or outrage?

JOHNNY FLATLINE: I think it was Monday or Tuesday where I told some friends that I was going to watch the calendar and count the days Bush could go without some big public screw up. They used to come monthly, but now they are almost daily. I was curious if he could make it just one week, free of trouble. Just one week. I know it‘s hard for an incompetent administration like this to go that long, but anything is possible. It wasn‘t more than 24 hours that this tape came out, showing that his people lied once again. A tape that they claimed didn‘t exist, in fact, did exist. Don’t you know somebody got sick of watching the lie, and purposely got that tape out because they couldn’t take it anymore? And it wasn‘t pretty, because once again, they had to do the backstroke to protect the President from himself. Reminded me of 911, where Michael Moore showed us tapes of Bush sitting in a chair at school, not knowing what to do. Enough said. No surprises here. He’s a dope, we all know it. And the funniest part is people like you guys continue to try to have serious conversations about him.

DAVID BROOKS: Well, in the one, he didn't ask a question, but then we heard on the news summary today that he was asking, "Were the levees breached?"

JIM LEHRER: But not on the tapes . . .

JIM LEHRER: He asked Brown, and Brown reported it...

DAVID BROOKS: And Governor Blanco said they weren't.

JIM LEHRER: Yes.

DAVID BROOKS: And so you've got a little sense there of the fog of war or whatever, the fog of hurricane.
So I do think that, you know, there are a couple of things to say. First of all, the president was a little engaged and that there was this fog and this confusion. Nonetheless, I think the thing you do get from the tapes and that first tape that we saw was him saying the right thing, which was, "We're going to give you all the support you need. We're going to be there."
But then what the president said didn't turn into the machinery of government working. And that's, frankly, a pattern we've seen in the administration before.

JOHNNY FLATLINE: You see how beautifully David did that. He did the talking point thing. The fog of war. The confusion of the moment. The uncertainty. The past 6 years have been a fog. It must be getting hard to defend such a complete idiot. I think you guys are really starting to embarrass yourself at this point. You’re embarrassing your country. This guy is a criminal. The real discussion we should be having right now, is not what he said on a Katrina tape. The level of discussion we should be having is how to impeach him after he so blatantly thumbed his nose at Congress, putting himself very publicly above the law. Where on earth is you sense of morality and dignity? How low must this guy sink before you see it?

JIM LEHRER: All right, now fit the tapes and also what's happened in Iraq the last several days into this remarkable drop in the president's approval ratings in all of the polls.

DAVID BROOKS: Right. I actually don't think -- I disagree with Johnny. I don't think Katrina had a big public opinion reaction, and I was surprised by this. But if you look at the charts...

JIM LEHRER: The video thing or just the whole thing?

DAVID BROOKS: The actual Katrina thing.

JIM LEHRER: The whole thing, OK.

DAVID BROOKS: If you look at the charts, I didn't just see a big change when Katrina happened. I think Iraq drove the slow decline of the president's approval. But then I think this week the decline from wherever it was, 40 to 37 or 34, I think that was the ports.

JIM LEHRER: The ports, Dubai. I forgot about that.

DAVID BROOKS: And then what the ports did was offend Republicans, because he had lost all the Democrats a long time ago, but it was Republicans. And you look at the upsurge of Republican anger, and especially people who are defining themselves as conservatives. I saw a 67 percent approval rating among conservatives, a third of conservatives not approving of President Bush. That's very high, and that's two issues, well, three, two and a half, the Iraq, but immigration and the ports.

JIM LEHRER: Johnny? Dare I ask?

JOHNNY FLATLINE: Jim, Bush had me at torture. He had me at secret prisons. He had me at axis of evil. He had me at Guantanamo. He had me at WMD lie. He should have had everybody at 6000 web photos of tortured prisoners. He should have had everybody after he thumbed his nose to Congress after illegal wiretaps. The fact that we are wondering if Katrina is significant, is paltry. If that was his worst deed, I would be delighted. That’s just incompetence. What’s worse than incompetence? Criminal behavior. His complete destruction of our constitution and our empire is a crime far worse, with consequences far more lasting and devastating to this country. I would gladly trade all of that damage for a poorly managed flood. Congress is just as bad as Bush, because they don‘t have the guts, wisdom or courage to stop him. If Bush’s polls are sinking, it just means the lies are starting to fail. But it’s been one big whopping six year lie. I can only hope some people grow up and start learning how to question authority. And it wouldn’t hurt to start right here at this table.

JIM LEHRER: Let me ask you this, David. I've asked -- we all have -- we've talked to people in political life all the time, from presidents on down to JPs, and you ask them about polls. "Oh, I don't care about polls. I don't run my government or my precinct by polls." And how does somebody not -- how does somebody really ignore a poll that is dramatic and as difficult as this is?

DAVID BROOKS: Well, on two levels. There are two different levels. First, I think Bush really does think at this point in long, historical terms. He's convinced he'll be vindicated in Iraq in the long term. That said, if you talk to people in the administration, just as they're talking casually, they're super aware of these numbers, because it's not only that it's some -- I mean, he's never running for office. But if they want to get something through on Capitol Hill, the numbers really matter.
The politicians fixate on these approval numbers. And if you're trying to get a controversial piece of legislation, 47 or 48 is a lot better than 37 or 38. And then, when you talk about November, I know they want to be up around 47 or 48 by November, just so the president can help more candidates. That's looking pretty unlikely.

JIM LEHRER: So David says they fixate on these polls, and yet when you interview him, they go, "No, no, no, I don't look at any polls."

JOHNNY FLATLINE: It means that Carl Rove needs to dream up some better lies. He’s pretty good at it, maybe he’ll find some useful ones.

JIM LEHRER: Robert MacNeil used to say, we only talk about ratings on the NewsHour when they're very high.

JOHNNY FLATLINE: Well, the polls may not matter. Remember, we have electronic voting, and insider fund raising. Democratic opinion can take a back seat when a few million votes can be massaged. Did you guys forget that Bush didn’t really win his first election? He’s not a choice of the people. He stole power like Musharref did.

DAVID BROOKS: I certainly don’t agree.

JIM LEHRER: Thank you both very much.

Flatline & Brooks - February 24, 2006

JIM LEHRER: And to the analysis of Flatline and Brooks: Fake Democracy founder Johnny Flatline, New York Times columnist David Brooks. Johnny, how do you see the situation in Iraq?

JOHNNY FLATLINE: Iraq is not the front for fighting terror. Let‘s get that straight. Iraq is the sink hole for the obliteration of the American empire. That‘s what Iraq is. It‘s exactly what every educated person with a brain said it would be. Our government is ignorant, and Iraq’s mess is the result of our incredible ignorance, greed, and disdain for educated thought.

JIM LEHRER: David, now picking up on that, we had a couple of analysts on the program last night and they both said there is nothing the United States can do now except try to facilitate discussions. And if the folks don't want to discuss, it isn't going to happen because we want --

DAVID BROOKS: Right. I'm not sure there is anything politics can do. One of the things we learned is the limited prestige of politicians, the limited effect of politics. Politics in societies like this and in all societies only goes so deep. And beneath that is religion. And it's the religious leaders who have come to the fore and it's religion that has caused a lot of the sectarian violence because of the two sects in the Islam faith, but it's also the religious leaders that have urged some unity, and it's really up to the culture, it's up to the organic culture whether they want to stick together.
And one does get the sense as much as there is, you know, this outrage, this horrible thing that happened, and as much as there has been the sectarian killing, we have been waiting for civil war for a couple years now.

JIM LEHRER: It's true.

DAVID BROOKS: And there have been many instances that would kick it off. The number of deaths, the number of Shia who have been shot, lined up and shot, the number of atrocities has just been amazing. And in each case there has been an upturn in violence and there are death squads on the Shiite side but they haven't erupted into civil war. So there has got to be some social cohesion there holding these two groups together.

JOHNNY FLATLINE: And let’s not forget about the other religion that is American based. The religion of wasting money and faith in the American warrior industry. It’s so powerful, that 99% of all politicians dare not criticize it or oppose it. It’s the monster that is eating our own flesh. And it’s the monster that has killed more Iraqis than any particular religious sect. It has tortured more Iraqi's than perhaps anybody else over there. So before we get high and mighty and talk about the irrational religious sects of Iraq, let’s not for the religious sect called American neocon militarism. It’s a faith far more dangerous, far more radical, and far more deadly than anything else on earth.

JIM LEHRER: David, I hesitate to bring this up, another subject, I hesitate to bring it up because you said on Wednesday night it would be gone, and this is that port security issue. Now it looks like everybody has agreed to, what is called a cooling-off period, do you see that as a good thing or bad thing?

DAVID BROOKS: All politics is local, complete vindication from my point of view. You know, they are going to reach some settlement -- listen, I didn't say it would be gone by -- in two days.

JIM LEHRER: I'm sorry, can we check the record please--

DAVID BROOKS: You are lying about my record Senator. You know, I think what's happened is that the -- the argument hasn't moved. The people who are suspicious of port have no argument. Their argument is Arab port, Arab port, these two things should not go together.
On the other side I think there has been a welling up of reasonable people piling up bit after bit of evidence to show that UAE and Dubai, the most important thing is they have been tremendous allies in the war on terror. We now know that 700 U.S. ships just last year were in the Dubai port being serviced by this very same company that is being blocked. Nobody blew any of those ships up. The UAE has been threatened by al-Qaida for being such a good ally to the U.S. They have been our best ally and one of our best allies in the region in the war on terror. And they are the ones we are kicking in the teeth. And so to me the argument just gets stronger by the day.

JIM LEHRER: Johnny, you probably don't even want equal time on this, right? You are going to throw in the towel, right?

JOHNNY FLATLINE: Well, it‘s a funny one because Bush has clearly backed off his hard line, after he saw how politically foolish his position was. There‘s arguments for it, there‘s arguments against it. What is much more amusing here is how Bush is basically a victim of his own rhetoric. He has promoted this world of fear and terror, and then when this comes up, his own religion of fear is what‘s making it so hard for him to fight for it in public. Now if he could continue with a backroom deal, like this was, then he would be pleased. But transparency has never been good for this administration, because we get to see how crooked they are when that happens. This administration claims to be big on security, but they are not really investing in security. They are only interested in investing in war, which is the fastest way to give money away to friends. That’s the strategy. That’s the strategic thinking that Bush claims to have.
Hong Kong can scan every container in its port, every day. That’s because they invest in security, economics, and making money. But the US doesn’t invest in itself. The US is a squandering nation. We squander. We don’t invest. Bush may not be worried about your personal privacy, or your political privacy, but he is very worried, apparently, about the privacy of what corporations are moving around in steel containers. He wants to know what might be in your shoe at the airport. But he’s not concerned about what’s inside a 60’ long metal box. That's because they focus on stealing from us, the people. That's where they invest their energy. It's crystal clear.

DAVID BROOKS: There are a lot of different issues here. One, this is a global economy. We have a lot of ships that come in, a lot of cargo is going to come in. There is a global economy; that is the bedrock of our prosperity, the bedrock of world prosperity. That is not going to change. The second issue is the port security.
Here I'm completely with Johnny; I am quite happy to have a debate about port security. I just don't want it to turn in to a xenophobic horde which focuses on the fact that some Arabs were running it. If this was that debate, that with be fine, but this horde got started because a British company sold to an Arab company. That is what this is about and if we have it in this context it's just a terrible tone to set. This is not Clint Eastwood, this is a Gregory Peck movie, one of those movies where they wanted to lynch some guy and needed some reasonable person to say hold on, let's look at the facts.

JOHNNY FLATLINE: Perhaps we can also end the xenophobia of Mexican immigrants while we’re at it. We want to build a fence to stop immigrants the way China walled itself in for centuries, to it's horrible disadvantage. But we don’t want to build a screening system that might stop the flow of a nuclear weapons. I don’t know about you, but I fear loose Russian nukes a lot more than a loose poor Mexican farm worker.

JIM LEHRER: All right. Thank you both very much.